Drawing a twisting torso

I really struggle with drawing a torso thats twisted when not looking at a reference. More specifically the area where the abdomen connects with the hip bone and oblique muscles.
Examples of twist I'm talking about:
http://vishstudio.deviantart.com/art/Twisted-Torso-199188370?q=boost%3Apopular%20twisted%20torso&qo=13
http://browse.deviantart.com/?order=9&q=torso+twist&offset=72#/d2mnyrk
http://davidivad8.deviantart.com/art/Torso-rotation-study-127709044?q=boost%3Apopular%20torso%20twist&qo=7

Ive tried different methods to simplify, but it just come out looking wrong.
Any advice or methods you think would help is good enough for me lol.

Well I've come across this quite a bit in many of my own pose drawings, however I wouldn't say I've mastered this problem enough to know I'm exactly putting it in the right words when I try and explain my methods.

The best method/technique I find helpful is drawing what would represent the pelvis as a box, rotated in one direction. Then drawing a more rectangular prism shape as a base for the torso, rotated a bit in another direction. Then anatomically rendering out the boxes in stages to slowly get your final drawing with that twist.

...and actually in that 3rd image you put up, you can kinda see that the artist of those drawings sorta did what I'm trying to explain. If you look closely at the pelvis, you can see he used a box as a base, and used a bit more of a rectangular prism as a base for the torso. Then it looks like he just connected it to the pelvis (following that curved guide line), making it look like a twisted cube of jell-o. And then rendered out the details of the rib cage and the abdominal muscles, of course following the direction of the spinal cord (again, take note on that curved line he drew as a guide line).

That's about the best way I can put it man. I'm sure once I've given it more practice, I could certainly give a more informative response to this. And, actually I think the best advice I could give you IS to just keep practicing!

Thanks for reply.
I will experiment with what you said.

Good input, Steeze. Let me build on your advice.

Torso drawing process:

I haven't explained how big the rib cage is in relation to the pelvis, or much of anything about the muscles. That, you can take your time studying by looking at skeletons or skeleton diagrams and paying attention to the length, width, etc. in a variety of places on the skeleton. Do the same with muscles; learning the shapes, and all these proportion details.

Anyway, just keep using guides like what I made until you get used to the skeletal and muscular structure.

Awesome Edy! This is precisely what i was trying to explain, in visual terms (idk where you do those quick little pixel arts ). Although I don't think i've thought of it with the 3rd box in the middle, which helps when visualizing what represents the stretch in the middle of the twist between the torso and the pelvis. I'll be referring to this, so thanks man!

heh, and thanks for posting this question Jones it should help a lot of other people with this same problem.

Well I'm glad I helped you, brother

Also, get this for easy screenshotting/uploading:

No prob Steeze. We all struggle at something, so never be ashamed to ask. We're all family here.
Thanks for info Eddy. Going to get to practicing nao.

First of all, hyperdesktop is THE SHIT. +1
Ok so the main problem that was messing me up was proportioning.
When I drew the discs in the abdomen area, I was drawing far out of position. Now, I like to draw the disc in the abdomen area roughly a 3rd below navel and crotch lines. Another important thing for me is that the End or Bottom of the rib cage is about a 3rd above the navel line. In some illustrations by loomis the disc dont end below the crotch line and in others they do. Im just comfortable and get a good result with the latter.
Stuff was drawn with mouse so excuse me:

Spoiler:

Then Flesh it out:

Spoiler:

When drawing the area of the oblique muscles, I think its best to think about the direction that the discs and rib-cage are facing(Or think about the direction the waist is facing.) With the second image, the disc are in a position where the waist and everything downward else are facing us directly., So because of this, going upward from the hip bone line, I drew the outside lines for the oblique muscles going inward. The lines then go back outward because of the rib-cage's shape and direction of the disc. If the waist was facing another direction, then I would've drawn a straighter line for the oblique muscle on one side. Stressing the angle on the pectoral muscles also helps.

Let me know if I made no sense
or if you beg to differ

Nother example(Sorry about the ruled paper):

Spoiler:

Hmm... It seems to me like you're over thinking how muscles and bones look to the exacts(boring studies in school), rather than looking at how they appear artistically(appealing and fun to the eye). Try dumbing down how the muscles and bones look as one, rather than constantly thinking of how the muscles will overlay the bones.

Again with the boxes. You start by drawing your base boxes that make up your example figure's form and shape. Then draw in the bones as basic shapes according to the dimensions of your boxes, to sorta get the idea of how your figure's skeleton will look like. Go back and render those skeletal shapes into more defined bones (you don't really have to get complex with details on the skeleton if you'll be drawing the muscles over them later). THEN draw in your muscles according to how the skeletons dimensions, which was based on the dimensions of your rectangle to begin with......see how dat works .

Look for tutorials everywhere that cover this, that will really boost your level of knowledge on this concept of how the muscles bend according to the skeleton.

If it helps here's one of my own example drawings which I referenced from an image off of deviantart.

Spoiler:

I took this one about mid way through drawing, see how I drew basic shapes inside of the base boxes?

Spoiler:

I noticed the box I drew for her pelvis wasn't anatomically correct, according to her shoulder width from the box I drew for her torso. So I widened the box and rendered out her muscles. The more practice you get with drawing the bones the less you have to draw them and are more able to draw the muscles in the boxes.

Spoiler:

And this would be the final sketch, I finalized my lines and scanned it for a clearer view. Hope that helps any.

Jesus punched the moon, I posted and the message just imploded on itself.

Recapping what I said:

Steeze, the "boring" muscle studies are neither boring nor bad practice. In fact, it's best practice to understand the muscles before you draw them as they normally appear under skin. Do both, really. Get a good grip on how muscles look when totally shredded (i.e. just muscle and no skin) vs how they look under varying amounts of fat.

But most fundamentally, learn how the muscles work together with the bones, and learn their shapes, positions, and proportions. Always try to wrap your head around what that muscle is pulling to do what. Every muscle on your body is meant to pull bones closer together. That's why every muscle group is important. Learn them, seriously. And learn what the skeleton looks like, in accuracy. Take your sweet time doing all this stuff. This is anatomy practice. And hopefully if you actually pay attention to the function of each muscle and how bones rotate and the whole shebang there, you should see great improvement in your visualization abilities, which are fundamental to our skills.

For proportions, look up stuff with human body proportions to see references and shit. Here's one I have (it says the human is 8 heads tall but it varies between 7-8 from one adult to another, usually. In anime it's like 6 heads tall, BUT DON'T YOU START WITH THAT!)

Spoiler:

Quote :

It seems to me like you're over thinking how muscles and bones look to the exacts(boring studies in school), rather than looking at how they appear artistically(appealing and fun to the eye).

Sorry that was worded a bit wrong.

What I meant was:

Quote :

That, you can take your time studying by looking at skeletons or skeleton diagrams and paying attention to the length, width, etc. in a variety of places on the skeleton. Do the same with muscles; learning the shapes, and all these proportion details.

Anyway, just keep using guides like what I made until you get used to the skeletal and muscular structure.

Just don't stress over it as you would in school trying to get an A+ on an exam. Rather remind yourself that you're wanting to learn all this because it's helping you become a better artist, and most importantly, because you find it to be fun as hell!

It seemed to me like Jones' mood was focused on stressing over the complexity of it all, when he should be looking at it as another fun obstacle in his journey through animation.

And awesome proportions guide you posted Edy.